So much has happened in my little world since I posted that I hardly know where to begin.
Jay and I no longer work at Northern Community Church of Christ. During the year it became clear that there were some significant differences in leadership and ministry philosophy and we decided that it would be better if we weren’t organisationally connected. So Loam is no longer a part of Northern and we are no longer on the staff there. However there is still lots of connection points as many people that we are in community with are involved in different programs or congregations that Northern runs. Obviously it is not the scenario that we all first imagined when we started up the relationship with Northern, but I think it is the healthiest place for us now.
The other comment that I want to make is that the relationship was not a waste of time. The church must experiment and take risks. Some things that we try will work and others won’t, some may even just work for a time, but we have to be willing to try new things if we are going to be faithful.
Since May I have been working with one of the guys in our church who runs a Landscape Construction business. I’ve been labouring 2-3 days a week and spending the rest of the week with people in the community or studying. Jay has gone back to doing 3 days of nursing and spending the rest of her time on either her new age bible project or with people in the community.
In other news we are going to have a baby. While we are really excited there is also concern as we have found out that he has Down’s Syndrome and a serious heart defect which will require open heart surgery sometime in the first six months of his life. So next year is shaping up to be very full.
The Loam community continues to meet and share life together. We are planning a time of reflection and discussion in February as it is around 2 years since we began. We still have the community dinner in our house every Sunday and we meet for worship on Wednesdays. We have developed several significant relationships with our neighbours which provide us with more than enough opportunities to love, serve and witness.
Congratulations on your baby to be!
I have a brother with Down syndrome. He’s such a blessing and brings so much joy to our family.
I understand the heart surgery and how that would be scary. My brother didn’t have any heart defects, but I remember the wait to find out whether he had any heart problems or not after he was born (he was diagnosed after he was born).
There are a lot of online support groups and message boards that are so helpful. A few of the most helpful are:
Einstein-Syndrome list that can be seen at http://www.einsteinsyndrome.com
The others are yahoo groups that are:
Downs Heart Group
DownSyndromeInfoExchange
DSTNI
HTH’s and feel free to email me ;),
Qadoshyah
Sister to 10 siblings including boy(DS)/girl twins - Feb. 05
qf@gotdownsyndrome.net
OOps, sorry I gave the wrong link for the Einstein Syndrome site, it is http://www.einstein-syndrome.com
That’s probably why your old friends, Dan and Phil, aren’t having kids. Besides the fact the kids cramp the career women’s lifestyle somewhat..
Unity in the body of Christ, huh? What a joke!
I’m not sure what you are getting at here David. Are you saying that Dan and Phil aren’t having kids because mine has Down’s Syndrome? Surely you wouldn’t be saying that … Also what do you mean about unity in the body of Christ being a joke?
Do we know each other? You seem to know a bit about who I am but your name David doesn’t tell me much about you …
What does the following statement mean:
“During the year it became clear that there were some significant differences in leadership and ministry philosophy and we decided that it would be better if we weren’t organisationally connected.”
Isn’t there only one philosophy - that of Jesus?
Who is being led of the Holy Spirt and who is not.? Surely, it can’t be both you and Phil? The Holy Spirit would not cause division, or a parting of ways.
Yes the philosophy of Jesus is the only true one, the problem is that everyone doesn’t seem to be able to agree on that.
That statement means that we realised that we differed on what the philosophy should be and for that reason we decided that not being organisationally connected would be helpful.
It does not mean that we are against one another or don’t share unity. You don’t have to work for the same organisation to have you unity with one another, do you?
As for who is being led by the Holy Spirit and who is not, I would say that both Phil and I seek to be led by the Holy Spirit, but often it is only in retrospect that we can work out whether we have heard clearly or not. Just because it didn’t work out like we had hoped doesn’t mean that it was wrong … we tried in good faith and found that it didn’t fit, but at least we gave it a go, better than not trying. Don’t you think?
Should an entire group suffer the loss of benefits that come with connection to a larger group, just because two leaders decide to “organisationally disconnect”?
Hierarchical leadership isn’t always good, is it? It doesn’t surprise me, though, that Phil is reluctant to give up the comforts of his position.
I can understand hierarchical structures when financial risk and ownership of profits are important.
But the same model in a church setting? You must be joking!
Sorry if I gave you the wrong impression. Loam made the decision to organisationally disconnect, it wasn’t a decision that Phil and I came to.
I don’t think your comments regarding Phil are at all fair. I’m not sure what’s caused you to speak like that about him but I’d certainly encourage you to raise any concerns you have with him directly. I’ve always found him very willing to talk through differences and issues.
I’d like to ask you not to post any personal insults like that in this blog again please. Thanks.
Some suggestions for you:
1. Take legal action
2. Send around some “heavies” for a bashing
3. Send around a hired killer.
Each one has biblical justification, as you know.
Hah! Now you’ve really lost me.
So who are you anyway?
I’m a lost soul heading straight for eternal torture in hell as per God’s plan.
Wow, sucks to be you bro, all the best with that.
Yeah, I used to be a Christian, but asked God to give my place in heaven to someone else. It’s the least I could do.
You silly boy, I hear you say (in the voice of Captain Mainwaring of “Dad’s Army”). But think about spending eternity with Christians playing harps - no way. At least the Muslims get 72 virgins, even if they are obese and ugly.
Anyway, as a gesture of selflessness, I think all Christians should offer up their places in heaven to the less fortunate.
Shit yeah, I hate harps! Seriously though I read this interview with a guy who I think has some good ideas recently at - http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1710844,00.html?iref=wer - I reckon it’s worth a read. If he’s wrong then I’m with you and offering up my place!
Good article, Tim. Traditional, platonic Christianity introduces an unsatisfactory dualism of body and soul - ideas which are foreign to an understanding of Christianity in which the article speaks of a reality of physical, bodily resurrection.
However, it seems that modern ideas of evolution, biology and science trump the simpler fantasies of St Paul in 1 Corinthians 15. Sin and death entering the world through Adam doesn’t make sense in the light of evolution. The idea of physical resurrection doesn’t make sense in light of modern atomic theory of matter.
If you say God will magic it so, well, I don’t see any evidence of God’s intervention in the world, either now nor historically.
As much as I would like to adopt the Christian belief system (not the platonic one), I don’t want to turn my brain off or get a full frontal lobotomy to do so.
I don’t think the bible is trying to answer the question of ‘how’ sin and death entered the world, it really focuses on telling us ‘why’. Paul wasn’t writing a scientific thesis he was referring back to ancient Jewish writings that were interpreted like myth. Not that they were taken as untrue but they weren’t meant to be understood literally, more about conveying a truth, that our brokeness and ultimate death is the result of our rejection of God.
Anyway, that’s how I’ve come to understand it. I can appreciate why you would not believe in an interventionist God. I’d also recommend against a lobotomy, it doesn’t sound like a good idea.
Sorry it’s taken me a couple of days to get to this, I have been enjoying this conversation quite a lot. I should warn you though that if I fail to answer it’s probably because Jay has gone into labour and I have husbandly/fatherly duties. So no offense intended if I seem to disappear.
So you think I’ve been sucked in hey? Maybe a more positive spin on that might be that I’ve chosen to take a step of faith … I think there is significant evidence for a historical resurrection. In fact I’m reading a book on that at the moment (http://www.amazon.com/Resurrection-Jesus-Dominic-Crossan-Dialogue/dp/0800637852). It’s dialogue between two blokes quite a bit smarter than me and who’ve also done a fair bit more study than me. They seem to think there’s quite a bit of evidence worth thinking about.
The resurrection is a key sign of the power of God, the conquering of evil and the breaking in of the kingdom. Absolutely I believe it means we can believe and look forward to participation in the new heaven and new earth. Not only that though, it also means we can participate with God in the establishment of his kingdom now.
The authorship of the gospels is again one of those questions that I’m not knowledgeable enough myself to answer. I’m more convinced by the arguments of those who say they were written by eye witnesses than those who propose they were collated at a later stage by the church.
What are your views on these issues?
Whatever the dating of the gospels, I don’t see why they are so compelling. They appear nothing more than stories made to fit a theological line of thought started by St Paul.
I don’t think people have ever risen from the dead, and am definitely not convinced the resurrection accounts have any historical basis.
Sorry, Tim, but I don’t see the Bible as “God’s word”, or having a magical power to transform people - really, there’s hardly any evidence of this around.
I can see that people have positive hope for the future based on their faith. But I think it’s a false hope. The reality, as I see it, is that in the long run we’re all dead and forgotten.
Here’s an article for you:
http://debunkingchristianity.blogspot.com/2008/03/father-of-new-testament.html
Thanks for the article. I’ll have a read sometime soon.
I think in terms of this discussion we’ve come to something of an impasse. I guess there comes a point where you have to agree to disagree. I respect your right to disbelief in the gospels and resurrection and I assume you respect my right to believe in them. I can’t see where else we could move to beyond this point.
Hope you enjoy your stay in heaven. Don’t forget to wave to me in hell.
Interesting, isn’t it, that God designed a system in which the vast majority of people will end up separated from him for eternity.
F*** you God.